What TV SHOWS are you watching?

Game of Thrones: I thought the last two seasons came about because Benioff and Weiss wanted to wrap this up and move on. They had an offer to do a Star Wars series, or possibly a show set in an alternate history where the South won the Civil War. Granted, this was before BLM, etc.

So after Season 6 they said fuck it, and what was meant for 40 hours with four major episodes (Ep. 9's) got cut down to about 16 hours in 13 episodes. A lot of stuff on their whiteboard was erased, and a lot of 'show' turned into 'tell'. Sure, they had outran GRRM after S5, but the skeleton of the plot that they had at the end was solid. Acting was still awesome, and special effects were still top-notch, but the abridged story as presented was garbage. Cut way too short. Character development was just flat-out abandoned. Geography? What's that?

HBO started to catch blame for shortening the series, but they flat-out said, "Don't blame us; we were more than happy to do the originally planned 100 episodes. Go talk to those guys."

In a rare instance of karma, Benioff and Weiss showed up ready to do that Star Wars series. Disney said, don't call us, we'll call you.

I think the other thing was that the last two seasons they had outrun the books, so were basically making shit up. Sure theoretically Martin gave them a synopsis of what was going to happen, but given Martin has basically done jack shit in terms of book output since the show came out, at this point the series may be all we'll ever see.

I know the showrunners get shit for half assing the two final seasons but AS A WHOLE the series is still pretty damn fine TV.

Exactly. They were probably told that Daenerys should end up as a tyrant, but they had no clue about (and obviously no interest in) how to get her there.

fightcitymayor wrote:

mtagge wrote: Decided to give the new Amazon series based on the popular D&D stream critical role a try. Legends of Vox Machina.

Since I don't want to be that guy that dumps on things that others may like let me try and be a bit more positive about the show. If you have watched Idiocracy and the scene where the main character is revived and he sees someone watching a show called "Ow, my ball!" and thought that would be a great show, Vox Machina is for you! It's chock full of D&D tropes (bard wants to bed everything and every song he does is about sex, anal beads, or such), tons of dick jokes, a running gag about ball punching, a little bit of plot, and a party that seems to be together because they all compliment each other's combat weaknesses. If I was in a board game or roleplaying group with the bard, barbarian, and rouge I'd find a new group. The other four seem to be alright.

I think the target audience is 15 year old males. I'm a bit peeved that this represents our hobby.

I watched the 1st episode & it was straight up terrible! It was like they got an 8-year-old boy and an 80-year-old man in a focus group and asked each guy what they found funny. The whole thing is total cringe, and worse: It's physically uncomfortable to watch. Like, the smash cuts, and quick edits, and blaring sound & digital effects, I was exhausted, and not in a good way. Total garbage. Which surprised me, I thought Critical Role was super popular stuff, not lame dick jokes and characters dropping f-bombs every other word like pre-teens in an online Call Of Duty spree.

Grade: F-

I only ever watched a few episodes of critical role, but my wife was a big fan at one point and watched tons of it. The first episode of the Amazon show was dreadful, and definitely didn't capture any of what was appealing in the couple episodes of the livestream stuff I watched. My wife violently disliked it too. I'm curious where the disconnect happened there.

mads b. wrote: Exactly. They were probably told that Daenerys should end up as a tyrant, but they had no clue about (and obviously no interest in) how to get her there.

I thought that they did okay with that aspect of the story, except that there should have been a few scenes that made viewers a little uncertain about her sanity. And the last two episodes of the series went stupidly over the top with the idea. The burning of King's Landing was reasonable for the first several minutes, but when it went on and on and on, it became ridiculous. And then she practically goes Third Reich in the final episode.

In the course of re-watching the whole series, I have been watching for signs that Daenerys was going to become an insane tyrant. No signs of insanity in the first six seasons, but the tyrant angle is actually supported. She often makes wise decisions after consulting with her advisors, but once she has made a decision, she is implacable and often resorts to harsh punitive measures. Some of her enemies died burning and screaming, while a significant number were literally crucified. She isn't sneaky and she has the best of intentions, but Dany is often imperious and even arrogant.

Taking place late in season five, "Hardhome" was the first enormous example of HBO flexing its muscle and showing how you could turn an episode of television into an hour of cinema. Jon goes north to the only major Wildling settlement and begins evacuations just in time for the Night King's armies to descend. It's an extended set piece full of impactful imagery. The descent of the White Walkers off the cliff. The giant throwing the dead off him as he rushes into the water. The Night King raising the dead. The cut to black where the only sound is the water lapping against the sides of the boat.

"Hardhome" is probably the last universally praised episode of Game of Thrones, for good reason. I also think this is the clear beginning of the end for the series' quality. The cracks were already there. There were already the interminable plotlines Jaime and Bronn in Dorne, Arya training in the House of Black and White and the aforementioned torture of Theon that didn't matter, but after this they gave up on storytelling in favor of imagery. And why not? It's easier to spend HBO's millions on special effects and CG then story when no has a clear idea of how it's going to end. The Battle of the Bastards, the Dirty Dozen beyond the Wall, the siege of Winterfell by the dead and the burning of King's Landing are visual masterpieces even if the storytelling is bunk. Benioff and Weiss probably thought they were still giving the audience what they wanted.

Compare to "Blackwater" the penultimate episode of season two. Again, it features a battle, but there's storytelling. Tyrion saves King's Landing when Joffrey runs. The Hound leaves the Lannisters. Sansa does what she can to rally the women only to be belittled by Cersei. Cersei just barely avoids murdering her youngest son. And there might be twenty extras running around a set smaller than my backyard. When you don't have the cash, you have to make your hits with your words.

And I also don't buy the last two seasons somehow invalidate the first four. Those first seasons remain a masterpiece of juggling twenty-plus characters and their storylines well enough that you care and remember when they fail and succeed no matter whether you love them or hate them.

I just want Winds of Winter or whatever the next book is to finally come out to see if there is ANY redeeming value in the last few seasons. Was it just an outline that gets fleshed out in the books or does it go down as a pale shadow of the books?

Finished Feria:Darkest Light and it stretches the end a bit but gives a nice nihilistic ending if that's all there is. The cult stuff is pretty good and there is a point where you can see the allure of it and how they can suck in a young girl (Archive 81 does something similar showing grooming). Police, as usual, are borderline inept but that's the way these things go.

Cobra Kai Season 4 is an absolute powerhouse! The addition of Thomas Ian Griffith was masterclass. The humor is on point, the kids conflicts are more of a supporting role to the main Danny-Johnny-Cobrai Kai triangle, and the idea that karate is somehow the regional top sport and social language of the town is oddly fitting. I thought I was about done with this show last season but it Hotel California'd me right back in!

Book of Fett transformed onto Mandalorian season2.5 with eps 4 and 5. Some awesome fan moments and while I still don't really know what Fett is doing, I don't care so long as Mando is around.

DarthJoJo wrote: Taking place late in season five, "Hardhome" was the first enormous example of HBO flexing its muscle and showing how you could turn an episode of television into an hour of cinema. Jon goes north to the only major Wildling settlement and begins evacuations just in time for the Night King's armies to descend. It's an extended set piece full of impactful imagery. The descent of the White Walkers off the cliff. The giant throwing the dead off him as he rushes into the water. The Night King raising the dead. The cut to black where the only sound is the water lapping against the sides of the boat.

"Hardhome" is probably the last universally praised episode of Game of Thrones, for good reason. I also think this is the clear beginning of the end for the series' quality. The cracks were already there. There were already the interminable plotlines Jaime and Bronn in Dorne, Arya training in the House of Black and White and the aforementioned torture of Theon that didn't matter, but after this they gave up on storytelling in favor of imagery. And why not? It's easier to spend HBO's millions on special effects and CG then story when no has a clear idea of how it's going to end. The Battle of the Bastards, the Dirty Dozen beyond the Wall, the siege of Winterfell by the dead and the burning of King's Landing are visual masterpieces even if the storytelling is bunk. Benioff and Weiss probably thought they were still giving the audience what they wanted.

Compare to "Blackwater" the penultimate episode of season two. Again, it features a battle, but there's storytelling. Tyrion saves King's Landing when Joffrey runs. The Hound leaves the Lannisters. Sansa does what she can to rally the women only to be belittled by Cersei. Cersei just barely avoids murdering her youngest son. And there might be twenty extras running around a set smaller than my backyard. When you don't have the cash, you have to make your hits with your words.

And I also don't buy the last two seasons somehow invalidate the first four. Those first seasons remain a masterpiece of juggling twenty-plus characters and their storylines well enough that you care and remember when they fail and succeed no matter whether you love them or hate them.

I’d put S4E9 WATCHERS ON THE WALL on par with HARDHOME for spectacle.

Watchers on the Wall is great spectacle but couldn’t reach its full potential because it was limited by its little season one set for Castle Black.

Aside from the writing, the casting on Game of Thrones was crucial to its success. Some of the casting choices are perfect, but so obvious that a different casting process would have likely found the same actor. I'm looking at Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) and Brienne (Gwendoline Christie). And there were others who turned in great performances but other actors could have also delivered. For example, Lena Headley played an excellent Cersei Lannister, but I'm sure that there were a number of actresses who could have delivered a comparable performance. The ones that really impressed me were the actors who played Arya Stark, Daenerys, Jaime Lannister, Lord Varys, Tywin Lannister, Joffrey Baratheon, the Hound, and the High Sparrow. The most disappointing casting was their Mance Rayder. In the books, he was portrayed as a glib bard who was able to persuade a vast number of wildling tribes and clans to join together. On the show, Mance was completely devoid of charisma and seemed to just be some completely mediocre middle aged guy who would have trouble recruiting three friends to go bowling, and yet he still somehow pulls that horde together.

Shellhead wrote: The most disappointing casting was their Mance Rayder. In the books, he was portrayed as a glib bard who was able to persuade a vast number of wildling tribes and clans to join together. On the show, Mance was completely devoid of charisma and seemed to just be some completely mediocre middle aged guy who would have trouble recruiting three friends to go bowling, and yet he still somehow pulls that horde together.

That's Ciaran Hinds, a really, really great Irish actor who has been in a million great roles. But you aren't wrong, the casting is a bit... off.

FUN FACT: That role of Mance Rayder was originally offered to the dude who played Jimmy McNulty on The Wire, but he turned them down.

fightcitymayor wrote:

Shellhead wrote: The most disappointing casting was their Mance Rayder. In the books, he was portrayed as a glib bard who was able to persuade a vast number of wildling tribes and clans to join together. On the show, Mance was completely devoid of charisma and seemed to just be some completely mediocre middle aged guy who would have trouble recruiting three friends to go bowling, and yet he still somehow pulls that horde together.

That's Ciaran Hinds, a really, really great Irish actor who has been in a million great roles. But you aren't wrong, the casting is a bit... off.

FUN FACT: That role of Mance Rayder was originally offered to the dude who played Jimmy McNulty on The Wire, but he turned them down.

Speaking of THE WIRE, Aiden Gillian was perfect as Littlefinger.

fightcitymayor wrote: That's Ciaran Hinds, a really, really great Irish actor who has been in a million great roles. But you aren't wrong, the casting is a bit... off.

Most recently doing an excellent turn in Belfast: dichotomouspurity.blogspot.com/2021/11/untroubled.html

Mance Rayder: maybe Ciaran Hinds has 18 Charisma in real life. I think Cate Blanchett is the same. She's gorgeous on the screen, but who isn't? But if you watch the Lord of the Rings actors' commentary, these actors swoon over Cate Blanchett.

(Shit, I was proud of myself for remembering his name. Then fightcitymayor beats me to the punch.)

Fun fact: you can see Ciaran Hinds in Excalibur as the knight yelling at Merlin right after Arthur draws the sword. "Merlin! We haven't forgotten you. What trickery is this!"

So this is back to being the Game Of Thrones thread?